14 Nov Will I gimp my raid by playing Shadow Priest? I have a burning passion for shadow priest in vanilla and I mostly want to raid. I've been talking to some people I know and some of them say that they would never bring a shadow priest into raid and others say that they absolutely want 1 shadow priest in their raid group. Why the mixed reactions? From my understanding, shadow priests in classic are mainly brought to raids to buff the damage output of your warlocks with Shadow Weaving. How many warlocks would a raid need to make 1 shadow priest worth bringing over a mage for example, and am I gimping the raids DPS by taking up that raid spot?Luminé39 14 Nov

Nov 15 You Absolutely Cannot Have Sharding This will not work well with a classic experience. Myself and the vast majority of my friends plan on coming back for classic. None of them want sharding. I know I don't speak for everyone but this mechanic will completely ruin the experience. Just voicing my opinion as I am incredibly excited about this project.Wurmknight82 Nov 15
I am currently working full time on my Vanilla WoW leveling guides.  Soon there will be a 1-60 speed leveling guide for Alliance, along with in-game guide versions available for my members area.  As of right now, there is no members area, but if you would like to show support for my efforts into this project, you can simply donate to me via Patreon if you like (you will get some cool rewards in return).  Or you can donate directly with PayPal if you like.  All donations are highly appreciated and they will only motivate me more to continue making the best vanilla WoW leveling guides on the web.
Most people who have spent years playing massively multiplayer online games will tell you that there's something special about the first one you played, too—and WoW was the first for many people. You can become so swept up in the uniqueness of your first experience that you overlook many flaws. It's likely many look at WoW Classic with rose-colored glasses, just as many simply forgot which features were added when. And some of today's WoW players may be too young to have even played vanilla WoW as it once was.
14 Nov Guild Recruitment "JAVIDAN" This is too Early ( i know ) but we are bunch of old friends ( Retired WOW Players ) plan to come back to WOW as it was in golden age of classic. we plan to have friendly guild, aimed for enjoying events and raids and for sure PVP. so far we are : 1- Prot Tank 2- Holy Priest 3- Ferral / Resto Druid 4- Destro Warlock 5- BM Hunter 6- Pyro Mage We are Proud Horde and we miss: Resto Shaman Combat Rogue and 2 Free DPS Slot for Start; this is mandatory for starting since plan is to divide into two 5 man Groups for dungeons, Gear / lvl Up and joining initial PVP WSG and AB. We are bunch of friendly old gamers from Iran, our time zone is +3:30 GMT. we will use English as primary language in guild chat. if you like to join us on starting , please leave your name below. have a good day.Siahpoosh9 14 Nov
Recently the new essence received from PvP which gives you access to an extra PvP talent, that also works in PvE situations, has made waves and there are plenty of threads about it on the forums. One in particular got a blue response which clarified just how powerful and how relevant the essence is supposed to be for PvE-focused players. Each spec gets a specific PvP talent added and some of them currently selected on the PTR are a little too powerful and feel mandatory for PvE, such as Moonkin Aura for Boomkins and Leader of the Pack for Feral Druids, but Blizzard clarified it is not their intention to have must-have talents for PvE available through the essence, as its primary goal is to add additional choice for PvP players.
- Gold traders, both buyers and sellers are disliked everywhere, literary on every realm. But have no worries, we have developed very safe practices for trading the gold between ours and your accounts. If you require a specific way of delivery to you (AH, Face2Face, Mail, CoD) we can oblige to your request - just send us an e-mail right after your purchase (include your character name) and we will take care of the rest.
In terms of what the World of Warcraft Classic Best Classes are, Warrior and Priest stand out almost instantly. This is partly due to the fact that Protection Warrior is the only viable Tank Class in WoW Vanilla Patch 1.12. Both the Proc Warrior and Priest are required for Raids and when combined in a PVP setting can be a fierce combo on the battlegrounds.
Nov 15 Professions Hey guys. Can you think of good items that you crafted and lasted for several levels at least? I have played on private servers and with 1.12 itemization, there was barely anything that I could use for even 3 levels. I have leveled up a leartheworker and only thing I remember using was Deviate Scale Belt. Yes, it's very decent and could last a few levels. But later, there are some blue gloves which are fine, but nothing brilliant. And "Guardian Belt"(+6 spirit, +6 stamina) is pathetic for a blue. I remember trying to craft Robe of power as Tailor for a mage but it wasn't that brilliant either, maybe you digress. :) Sure, at level 60, there are nice robes for tailors but before that, do you think using the 1.12 client diminishes the role of crafting professions for leveling? Imagine ability to craft some brilliant item(for each profession) at level 30 that would last full ten levels just like Warrior's Whirlwind Axe, would be decent, no? Warlocks also have similar quest for Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe, but for classes that don't have such class quests would be an enormous boost.Holylr34 Nov 15

Like with addons in the current game, you just need to drop any of these addons into the addons folder — find it under /Interface/AddOns/ in the Classic beta folder, which is in your World of Warcraft folder by default. Then once you log on to the game, you’ll want to make sure that the addons are enabled via the menu option on the character screen.

Hey kid… You want unlimited power? Buy now at the low-low-low-low-low price of your eternal soul ^(and the destruction of your entire planet, ruin of your culture and its way of life), but hey, don’t worry about that. Just think about those guys who called you names at Shaman school, think about the elders who cast you out, and think about the 15 foot tall burning infernal crushing their proportionally tiny skull between its… Do rocks have fingers? Who cares kid, just think of the power.

Arms: Sharpen Blade - When activated, your next Mortal Strike will deal 15% increased damage and reduce healing taken by 50% for 6 sec. Fury: Battle Trance - You go into a trance causing you to regenerate 3% of your health and generate 5 Rage every 3 sec for 18 sec after using Raging Blow twice in a row on a target. Using Raging Blow on a new target will cancel this effect. Protection: Thunderstruck - Thunder Clap roots all targets for 1 sec. You can find a list of all Essences available in Rise of Azshara here.


Wait, /sit to trigger crits is p-server thing? I distinctly remember people saying that if you sit, you will be crit when I played 1.12 Vanilla. On top of that - there’s that pally that one shot Kazzak in early Vanilla because he stacked a shitload of reckoning when it didn’t have a limit - it’s not inconceivable that he did it without /sit to trigger crits, but it would take him so, SO long to do that without /sit.

It is a great advantage to start making some silver and your first gold coin at low levels already. Skinning is a nice choice here. Fast and easy way to gather resources, leather of all kinds while leveling for those who are at the race to level 60. There are many good spots to grind beast mobs and skin them. I like doing it as a Troll Hunter, trolls have a passive racial ability: + 5% bonus damage against beasts.
Nov 15 I pay $12 for FFXIV. Why pay $15 for Classic? I copied this from a reply I made with slight edits, but I feel this should be brought up in a post. I'm mostly a FFXIV player nowadays. I used to play classic a lot and have only played modern WoW on and off because friends kept bugging me to come back... and then we would all quit a month or so in. I currently pay $12 for FFXIV because they have an option to pay 12 for having only 1 character per server. Paying $15 dollars for an old game that was already released is just too much. I don't like modern WoW at all. I don't like the changes they are making to 'their classic'. If I have to pay $15 dollars for a game I won't play and a modern Blizzard's take on classic WoW, then I'm not going to pay anything and go on private servers. I don't like private servers either because the people running it are often corrupt and you never know when the servers will be shut down, but I am also not willing to shell out $15 for something that isn't worth it. If I can pay $12 to play FFXIV which is a modern mmo that receives constant updates, I shouldn't have to pay $15 to play an old MMO that's already been released and is getting unnecessary changes.Destroynme111 Nov 15
- We do have a single money back guarantee (refund policy) in existence for every server we operate on. We do strive to deliver your purchased goods as soon as possible, but it may happen that we are AFK due to offline activities. You should not worry though - if the gold is not delivered to you within 24 hours, a 100% refund can be provided to you simply by sending an e-mail to shop@v7gaming.com - we won't ask any questions to you.
Why Skinning? Skinning is incredibly easy to level up while you are leveling your character. The leather that you skin will almost always sell on the Auction House (albeit not for much, but hey– it’s free gold!). Even if you don’t want to take the effort to sell the skins on the Auction House, you can simply vendor them for a significant amount of extra gold.

One may think that the AH may suffer a reduction of competitivity, leading to higher prices, but in an healthy server the gold farmer's farm will be taken over by actual players. Giving the chance to a more fair gameplay where you can go out and farm the materials that you need, instead to see them always farmed by gold sellers that sell them to you, without letting you many room to make gold in a fair way.
A different brand of challenge is presented by the PVP, which has undergone multiple phases and metas throughout the game's long lifespan. As in any competitive live game, some classes will be a fan favorite criticized as overpowered in one era only to be left behind in the next. The team says this is one of the main reasons it chose this specific iteration of WoW.
The leveling guides on my site are essentially speed leveling guides.  My leveling guides are the same guides I use myself to speedrun to 60 on new servers to get 60 server first.  I list many occasions where I tell the player to "die on purpose" to go faster.  I tell the player to skip certain quests, because some quests are just not worth the time/XP.  I list tricks and shortcuts to go faster so you can reach level 60 much quicker.  I am still constantly going through them over and over again perfecting the guides to make them faster and easier to follow.  For the most part, the guide can be followed without the need from other player's help, as the whole guide was made from a solo run anyways.  Although I do list quests that can optionally be done if you have a group.
I received a beta invite for Classic, and had also been an alpha and beta tester for the original game 15 years ago. That isn't unique; plenty of people in Northshire Valley had had the same experience, suggesting to me that active players who were Day 1 WoW gamers or had participated in the original tests might have gotten priority invitations to this one.
When you decide to Buy World of Warcraft Classic Gold, the main factors you will consider are price, trust and speed. mmoko has many years of experience in the field of game goods sales, providing excellent pre-sales and after-sales services for more than 50,000 customers. Our customer service staff and game traders are online 24 hours a day. If you have any problems, please feel free to contact us. Our goal is to do our best to meet the needs of our customers.

I made some route changes to the Horde levels 43-44 sections.  I have swapped 44 Dustwallow Marsh with 44 Desolace (the entire sections). This allowed me to do Deadmire (at lvl 43 instead of 38) and then go stop at TB to turn in Deadmire + The Black Shield at the same time, then fly quickly to do the Desolace stuff.  Doing 44 Desolace is now mandatory because I think its faster with the new routes. This will also make the level 53 grind much shorter.  I think these were great changes.
World of Warcraft Classic is currently in beta, which means some players are getting a chance to experience a much older version of the MMO ahead of its release. WoW Classic is based on how WoW played in August 2006, back around update 1.12. Back then, things were different. Tauren hitboxes were much larger, sitting could cause certain combat effects to not trigger and completed quests were marked with dots and not question marks. Strange days.
Over the 15 years since the launch of World of Warcraft, Blizzard has slowly sanded off some of Azeroth's rough edges. The world is still bustling with dangerous dungeons and harrowing raids, but these days it's a kinder, friendlier world. World of Warcraft Classic aims to fix that, to make Azeroth dangerous again--although it retains a few of the modern niceties.
Brewmaster: Hot Trub - Purifying Brew deals 30% of your purified staggered damage to all enemies within 10 yards. Mistweaver: Way of the Crane - Increases your Physical damage by 25%, you remove and become immune to all snare and root effects and you heal up to 3 nearest allies for 150% of all damage done. Lasts 15 sec. Windwalker: Reverse Harm - Heals a friendly target for 8% of their maximum health, and causes 100% of the amount healed to instantly be dealt to the nearest enemy as Nature damage within 5 yards. Paladin
Nov 15 Thank you for the demo I just want to say thank you to Blizzard for the demo. I seriously had so much fun - so much more fun than I've had trying to play wow in YEARS. I know not everything was 100% accurate to classic, but it was just a demo so that doesn't worry me too much. I still had a million times more fun playing that demo than retail in any case. THE THINGS I LOVED: (1) I died so much. Like... SO MUCH, and that's alright! Once I finally finished whatever it was I was doing, it felt really rewarding! My group and I were actually laughing when we party wiped. No one insulted anyone or pointed blame, we just had fun. (2) Things took time. The journey mattered, it wasn't just about hitting end game asap. I felt accomplished at the end of all those time consuming things I did. (3) I had fun exploring! I spent so much time just running around, not knowing what the heck to do, but that was FUN. I had FUN getting lost and finding treasure chests. (4) Seeing the classic models again! Tbh, the races all look rubbery and stupid now... I honestly think the old racial looks are nicer. (5) Reading quests was necessary again, so the story mattered to me. No one booted me from the party for "taking too long" because I wanted to read. (6) The community! There were actually people doing RP stuff and talking in character. Everyone in the chat was just having fun. (7) All of the inconveniences - running out of mana, no mounts, running slowly on foot, little or no flightpaths... These things are fun because they're not just handed to me. I had to work hard and play the game to get things. (8) People constantly buffed other players, because that small boost could be the reason you didn't die when a roaming centaur attacked you from behind. THE THINGS I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT: (1) I've heard rumors about possible sharding... PLEASE DO NOT SHARD. PLEASE. I can understand if it's temporary just for the initial launch, and only for starting zones. I think that is a decent enough compromise for the inevitable problem of overpopulation for the first few weeks. But if we're talking about full scale realm sharding, PLEASE DO NOT! Cross-realm features and sharding are what ruined communities in wow, same with dungeon finder and other such things, and these features are very unwanted for a classic player like me. (2) The elite raptor I tamed as a hunter was not stronger than the non-elite raptor I tamed at the same level. In classic, elite animals had better stats as hunter pets once tamed, compared to the same non-elite version of that animal at the same level. (3) I think the mana and health regen rates were a bit too high? I'm not certain, but if they were I honestly want them to be genuine. It's okay if it's hard - challenges make games fun! Anyway, thank you again! I had a ton of fun, and as long as classic is true to classic with all of its pros AND cons, I feel certain that it will be a success.Sarai10 Nov 15
I had the privilege of traveling to Irvine, California to play before the beta started and talk to the folks at Blizzard behind the project. They told a story of learning, enthusiasm, and cautious optimism in regards to WoW Classic, perhaps best articulated by J. Allen Brack, the recently appointed President of Blizzard Entertainment. He’s a thirteen-year Blizzard veteran who, until recently, had been with the WoW team since vanilla.

14 Nov Guild Recruitment "JAVIDAN" This is too Early ( i know ) but we are bunch of old friends ( Retired WOW Players ) plan to come back to WOW as it was in golden age of classic. we plan to have friendly guild, aimed for enjoying events and raids and for sure PVP. so far we are : 1- Prot Tank 2- Holy Priest 3- Ferral / Resto Druid 4- Destro Warlock 5- BM Hunter 6- Pyro Mage We are Proud Horde and we miss: Resto Shaman Combat Rogue and 2 Free DPS Slot for Start; this is mandatory for starting since plan is to divide into two 5 man Groups for dungeons, Gear / lvl Up and joining initial PVP WSG and AB. We are bunch of friendly old gamers from Iran, our time zone is +3:30 GMT. we will use English as primary language in guild chat. if you like to join us on starting , please leave your name below. have a good day.Siahpoosh9 14 Nov


It is also worth noting that World of Warcraft Classic isn't exactly an archive from 2006. It has been rebuilt from patch 1.12, using modern data architecture and reaps the benefits of the modern engine. This means a lot of non-controversial quality-of-life features will still be present and it is possible to run WoW Classic servers on modern server architecture. As you can imagine, much has changed in the last 13 years in the tech space. That's before smartphones were even a thing. The modern engine no longer allows certain behaviours that could be used to get out of bounds, also adds widescreen monitor support and accessibility options! However, it does have the disadvantage of not being able to run on 32-bit systems which isn't that kind to older systems considering the game is from 2006.

Recently the new essence received from PvP which gives you access to an extra PvP talent, that also works in PvE situations, has made waves and there are plenty of threads about it on the forums. One in particular got a blue response which clarified just how powerful and how relevant the essence is supposed to be for PvE-focused players. Each spec gets a specific PvP talent added and some of them currently selected on the PTR are a little too powerful and feel mandatory for PvE, such as Moonkin Aura for Boomkins and Leader of the Pack for Feral Druids, but Blizzard clarified it is not their intention to have must-have talents for PvE available through the essence, as its primary goal is to add additional choice for PvP players.
14 Nov Some thoughts about sharding,loot-trading etc As stated in an earlier post (https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17619571827), I didn't start playing the game until Jan./Feb. 2006, so my own experience with Vanilla is limited (compared to many others in the community). I do however want Classic to be as close to Vanilla as it can possibly be. (Disclaimer; I do admit I haven't gone too deep into all the topics, in regards to the implications of implementing such and such. These are just a random dude's thoughts about an upcoming revamp I'm really hyped about.) -Updated graphics and new models; I don't really have a problem with either. I think. I mean, it's not a deal-breaker for me, but I would prefer the old-school stuff. Currently playing on a potato, so I don't really know what updated graphics are anyways. :p -Sharding; no. Server-crashes (or login-queues) will always be preferable to sharding. Obviously nobody wants server-crashes or login-queues, but unlike sharding, it's not game-breaking. And besides, when the game comes out it will be 2019... are Blizzard saying they don't have the tech. to create sharding-free, non-hyperlaggy servers? I hear talks about how private servers manage to do it, so it will obviously be a non-issue for Blizzard to also do it... right? -Server-population; 3k-ish? Not sure tbh, but it should be (as with most other things) as close to Vanilla as possible. -Server-mergers; Don't really know how I feel about this, I just have more questions. Inevitably people will drop off, re-roll/switch servers etc., so what will happen with the "dead" servers? -Debuff-limit; 8 at launch. I don't really have an opinion on when 16 should be implemented, but it should be 8 at launch. -Loot-trading; a HUGE no-no! Not only was this not in Vanilla, this will 100% be abused. I can understand the point Frostadamus and others have made, that it could be used in raids but not dungeons, but there is no actual need for it to be implemented. -Progressive itemization; yes. This topic goes over my head, so I'll leave it up to the smart people to figure it out. But yes. -Content release; I like/agree with Esfand; ... -Classic being Classic; to borrow from a YT-comment (Michael Pate); "No one completed BWL unless they had completed MC. No one completed AQ40 who had not completed BWL. No one completed Naxx who had not completed AQ40." For some reason I see a lot of people who really hate this, that they can't just hit max level and jump right into a raid and expect to kill bosses. (You know, there are these pre-raid BiS-lists out there...) They also talk about tuning raids, balancing classes (and melee vs. casters) etc. I don't get it. This is supposed to be Classic, so the classes/roles will obviously not be balanced, nor should they be. Being out-healed by other classes, or out-dps'd? Yes, you will be. You personally may not top the meters, but the guild/raid will progress, and that's the point. Needing resistance-gear for specific encounters? Naturally (pun intended). Getting a fancy cloak to shield you from a terrible fire-breathing dragon? (points to you if you get the movie-reference) Definitely. Getting specific items in order to down a specific boss is a good thing, and in order to progress/complete a specific raid, you should have gathered enough gear/skill/experience from the previous raid(s). But if you are unable to leave your e-peen at the login-screen, you need to find a very hardcore raid(or pvp)guild, or I fear you will not enjoy Classic. Non-hardcore (and/or non-fanatical) guilds won't have a problem with hybrid specs joining their ranks, but all of this is subjective. Play the class/spec you want to play. If you hate tanking, don't play a tank. You should definitely try it out at some point, as with healing, but this is a game after all, it is supposed to be fun. So play the way you want to play, with people you want to play with, who has no problem with you playing the class/role you want to play. No matter your desire or playstyle, there will always be others out there who share your insanity/quirks. Great minds think alike and all that. :) I'm sure there are things I've forgotten to write about, misunderstood etc. Thankfully there are lots of more knowledgeable players out there who are also better at explaining why they think the way they think. But again, these are just my random thoughts on some topics. -Rychaq-Rychaq5 14 Nov
15 Nov A Guild of First-Timers This post is only meant to gauge interest for a guild of this kind, as the release of Classic is still a while off. I'm interested in starting or joining a guild of likeminded individuals, who want to play Classic WoW without [excessive] use of guides and/or foreknowledge. I began playing WoW towards the end of The Burning Crusade, so I never actually experienced Vanilla, though I did play on Nostalrius for a bit. A private server environment never appealed to me much though, but I am excited to experience the slower pace and more social aspects that Classic holds in store for us on official servers. What I really hope for, though, is the opportunity to discover things for myself and to learn and grow alongside other people who may have missed the early days. Of course, most (all?) people who will play Classic will have played WoW at some point before, and not all knowledge and memories can be wiped ("Wow, cool, a new town called Goldshire! I wonder what I can do here?"). This is ok, and I do not suggest dogmatically avoiding any kinds of guides at all costs. I do, however, feel like a general guideline like this could make for a fun experience. As a guild, we would strive to progress through dungeons and raids on our own, figuring out pitfalls and challenges as we go along. Naturally, this means that we wouldn't be particularly "hardcore", and speed would not be our primary objective. Instead, I suggest emphasis is placed on exploration and trial-and-error. I do not want to explicitly exclude people who have played Vanilla, all are welcome. That being said, if one were to have great knowledge of many encounters, it might defeat the purpose of this guild if it was just shared with everyone from the beginning. Likewise, if a knowledgeable person like that were to keep quiet on purpose, it might become frustrating for them to see the rest futilely derping around and missing something obvious. Personally, I have been trying to keep myself from binge watching all kinds of stuff about Classic WoW, precisely because I want to discover it for myself. Despite my efforts, I already know some things, and surely other people interested in this will as well; but I believe there may still be value in what I am proposing. Information should be shared freely in the Guild as well, of course. The intent is to grow as a group, not each wait for everyone to individually figure out where Gromsblood grows before sharing it with them. As a final note, I would be willing to be the guild leader, though I hope it would be a very democratic and non-hierarchical environment in general. I cannot, however, guarantee that I will have enough time to continue to fill that role in the future, and other obligations prevent me from playing outside evenings and weekends in general. As such, if anyone else is interested in taking up a leading role, let me know. First of all, though, is anyone interested in a guild like this in the first place? PS: In case it wasn't obvious from where I have posted this, I am from the EU region. Also, I currently intend to play Alliance as a faction, but am in principle open to the possibility of playing Horde instead.Toh16 15 Nov
Gold in World of Warcraft: Classic can be earned with a bit of luck too. By killing and looting mobs you might find some truly rare items. Some of them might be usable by you but others might not. Don’t just sell that piece of rare equipment to the nearest vendor as it can earn you quite a bit in the auction house. Especially if it’s an item for a level 50+ character.
“WoW has been a huge game,” Brack continued. “It’s had a huge community impact, it’s created a lot of bonds and friendships. Not being able to experience that game felt like a bit of a tragedy. So that was part of the lens as well was like ‘hey this game should exist, we should find a way for this game to exist!’ And now we’ve done the work and it will exist, and you saw the release date at the end of August, we’re really excited to bring a multi-year journey to that kind of conclusion.”
Nov 15 NO CHANGES. Change it, we won't play. NO server cap above 2500 NO further restrictions towards addon APIs NO sharding NO increased/decreased XP rate NO loot trading NO CRZ NO phasing NO connected realms NO dynamic respawn NO LFD/LFR NO new models NO dual talents NO wow token NO character boost NO shop NO transmog NO achievement NO heirlooms NO arena NO bfa character customization NO esports NO rated BG NO raid re-tuning NO class re-balancing NO personal loot NO flying NO mythic keystone dungeon NO multiple difficulties NO aoe-looting NO Death Knight NO Monk NO Demon Hunter NO blood elf NO draenei NO playable worgen/goblin NO allied races NO pandas No anti-cheat that blocks wall climbing (I want to see mount hyjal) YES to CRBG in the final patch. NO to any other cross realm technology These changes are unacceptable. Sorry I am speaking the truth. BTW. NO "NO CHANGES, BUT ..."Castradys254 Nov 15
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The Gold Queen is written by Alyzande. Working on her 14th level 110, she has 9 years expertise in making gold, 19,000+ achievements, 1593 days played, over 39 million gold earned, and now playing World of Warcraft Legion live. The Gold Queen blog teaches you how to make gold playing Warcraft using ethical trading, auction house flipping, crafting, reselling, snatch lists, and farming gold making. Want more updates on Warcraft Legion? Support my Patreon for exclusive pre-release Legion Gold Guides.

Nov 15 Looking Forward. So simple fun thread to see how you all think and feel. Name 1 thing you are definitely looking forward to, preferably not the obvious stuff but whatever go wild! I'll start with one. Professions aiding in immersion. Not sure if many noticed this but something I am excited about playing a hunter is the professions and how they aid in immersion for the hunter class so freaking well. All of the secondary profs help hunter immersion. Cooking, Fishing and First Aid all actually fueled the hunter lifestyle. Add in Skinning and Leather Working and it's straight up Hunter RPG.Melaned22 Nov 15
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