Nov 15 Guild Banks Pt. 14 So let's take our minds off subs and sharding and have a nice classic discussion about guild banks. Guild banks are still by far the least impactful on gameplay and most spirit of Vanilla community change one could request. Not only that the log keeps officers and gm's honest. Without logs they are free to skim off the top of donations and trivialize their epic mount purchase. Thoughts?Padrepwn91 Nov 15
Nov 15 I pay $12 for FFXIV. Why pay $15 for Classic? I copied this from a reply I made with slight edits, but I feel this should be brought up in a post. I'm mostly a FFXIV player nowadays. I used to play classic a lot and have only played modern WoW on and off because friends kept bugging me to come back... and then we would all quit a month or so in. I currently pay $12 for FFXIV because they have an option to pay 12 for having only 1 character per server. Paying $15 dollars for an old game that was already released is just too much. I don't like modern WoW at all. I don't like the changes they are making to 'their classic'. If I have to pay $15 dollars for a game I won't play and a modern Blizzard's take on classic WoW, then I'm not going to pay anything and go on private servers. I don't like private servers either because the people running it are often corrupt and you never know when the servers will be shut down, but I am also not willing to shell out $15 for something that isn't worth it. If I can pay $12 to play FFXIV which is a modern mmo that receives constant updates, I shouldn't have to pay $15 to play an old MMO that's already been released and is getting unnecessary changes.Destroynme111 Nov 15
So committed, in fact, that modern WoW players are trying the beta and reporting what seem like bugs today but what were actually intended functionality 13 years ago. This became such a common occurrence that Blizzard publicly posted a list of known non-issues called the "WoW Classic 'Not a Bug' List." For example, hitboxes for the Tauren player race are much larger than those of other races. In a modern game, this would be seen as a serious balance issue (see: Apex Legends). But it's what vanilla WoW was like, so it has been faithfully reproduced.
Nov 15 How to fix paladin dps Just make holy wrath & exorcism work on all types of enemy but not affect player characters. It's an easy fix that will make pally dps better in pve but stay the same as they were in vanilla in pvp. Put this thing into a deep ret talent so it will require people to spec deep in ret to be able to dps. A good spot is add it with two-hand weapon specialization making it so that by putting talents into it all hostile aside from players and undeads(since they are already affected by the default version) to be affected by the dmg and effects of the spells effectiveness by 33%/66%/100%. I doubt they would even do this so im just throwing out ideas since too many of you dont actually read the forum and only read the OP here you go to explain a bit of my reasoning because this change wont make ret stronger than pure dps; clearly most of you people didnt play vanilla nor know anything about naxx. ...Toushin260 Nov 15
So we asked ourselves, would it still be possible to deliver an authentic classic experience if we took our modern code, with all its back-end improvements and changes, and used it to process the Patch 1.12 game data? While that might seem counterintuitive, this would inherently include classic systems like skill ranks, old quests and terrain, talents, and so on, while later features like Transmog and Achievements would effectively not exist because they were entirely absent from the data. After weeks of R&D, experimentation, and prototyping, we were confident we could deliver the classic WoW content and gameplay without sacrificing the literally millions of hours put in to back-end development over the past 13 years.
Fifteen years of iterative design means that the World of Warcraft that existed in 2006 is dissimilar to World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth as it exists in 2019, even if you’re playing the same content. The cumulative effect of thousands of tweaks means that pinpointing exactly what made Classic so special is a nebulous undertaking. Flying mounts, for instance, were a welcome addition when they were introduced in The Burning Crusade. It eventually became clear to players, however, that the convenience and fantasy they offered came along with a number of significant drawbacks like reduced interaction with topography, enemy NPCs, and other players. In spite of this, flying limitations are met generally with negative feedback on the part of BFA’s community. Such conveniences are difficult to unlearn.
In this form, there is much less wasted space and spells are no longer limited to three effects. But before we can load any database data, we need to transform the old data layout into the new one. This is not limited to spells, as almost every game system (including items, creatures, player characters, spawning, AI, and more) has had its database layout altered over the years.
The original WoW was painful. Mobs took forever to die; one additional enemy in a fight was a pain, two probably meant death. There was a ton of running. Most buffs lasted two minutes, many took reagents, abilities were trained and often out of reach if you lacked the necessary gold. Warlocks had to farm shards, hunters had to carry ammo -- even my warrior did, since in vanilla WoW she can carry a bow and fire arrows herself.
Nov 15 Professions Hey guys. Can you think of good items that you crafted and lasted for several levels at least? I have played on private servers and with 1.12 itemization, there was barely anything that I could use for even 3 levels. I have leveled up a leartheworker and only thing I remember using was Deviate Scale Belt. Yes, it's very decent and could last a few levels. But later, there are some blue gloves which are fine, but nothing brilliant. And "Guardian Belt"(+6 spirit, +6 stamina) is pathetic for a blue. I remember trying to craft Robe of power as Tailor for a mage but it wasn't that brilliant either, maybe you digress. :) Sure, at level 60, there are nice robes for tailors but before that, do you think using the 1.12 client diminishes the role of crafting professions for leveling? Imagine ability to craft some brilliant item(for each profession) at level 30 that would last full ten levels just like Warrior's Whirlwind Axe, would be decent, no? Warlocks also have similar quest for Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe, but for classes that don't have such class quests would be an enormous boost.Holylr34 Nov 15

An advice for those who are trying to compete monopolizers: you cannot beat them by selling for less if they follow right steps. You should do opposite: sell for more. Because market will come down if the price goes unreasonably high. You can set a bid on item for the price it should cost and buy out price for higher than a monopolizer is selling. So, common buyer may get an item for the right price or monopolizer has to buy the item at his loss.

15 Nov question about hunter So i saw this leveling guide for hunter in classic and it seems like u need some kind of addon to track ur auto shot. So my question is how did auto shot work back then? did u have to stand still to be able to shoot auto shots? and did like using arcane shot reset the timer of auto shot wich means if u are 1 sec from an auto shot but uses arcane instead u get new 3 sec (or whatever the wep speed is) before an auto shot is fired? thanksCirluica29 15 Nov
14 Feb 2014 Forum Guidelines - Please Read Welcome to the World of Warcraft discussion forums! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss all aspects of World of Warcraft with your fellow players. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy. Therefore, we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct before posting. Search The new search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely robust. Please be sure to use it to look for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer before creating your forum topic. Making a new thread on an existing subject will likely result in your thread being deleted. If you continue to repost it you're likely to have your posting privileges suspended for spamming. Worst of all, you'll be making the other forum goers upset that you didn't take a minute to search before posting. Reporting You can quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of the violation. You can only rate each post once. Use it wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community. Guidelines In addition to our general Code of Conduct, here are some common courtesy guidelines to follow to ensure these forums remain a constructive and friendly gathering place for the community. While these do technically fall within the bounds of the Code of Conduct, these cover more specific examples of common errors that will lead to thread deletions or posting privileges being revoked. The World of Warcraft forums are for discussion of topics directly related to World of Warcraft The forums here are specifically to discuss the game and related topics. Any topics not related to World of Warcraft, Battle.net or Blizzard are subject to deletion. Don't post in all capital letters, use a misleading title, excessive punctuation, non-standard symbols, etc. While everyone wants their posts read, we ask you to refrain from using these types of tactics in order to bring more people to your thread. Let your post stand on its own merit. Threads violating this guideline are subject to deletion. Using the words Blizzard, Blue, or any community team members name in a thread topic to gather attention is frowned upon Everyone would like Blizzard to read and acknowledge his or her post, and we understand that. However, use of such words in the topic does not help that come to pass. Please make your thread title relevant to the post subject. Threads violating this guideline are subject to deletion. Note that threads discussing e.g. the Blizzard authenticator or Blizzard’s latest press release are allowed to have Blizzard in the title as it’s then relevant to the discussion. Posting "First" or IBTL constitutes as spamming You will be suspended if you create a post that is intended to call out that you achieved a specific reply number in a thread. This is considered spamming. Posting IBTL (in before the lock) is not helpful and if you feel a thread should be moderated please use the rating button to do so. Posting TLDR or L2P constitutes as trolling Posting TLDR (Too Long, Didn’t Read) is saying you don’t care about a player’s post. Posting L2P (Learn to Play) mocks the player for their skill or experience level rather than provide constructive input on the post itself. Both are considered trolling and will lead to a suspension.Takralus2 14 Feb 2014
15 Nov (A)Elysium is Recruiting for Classic Greetings friends, I am the Owner of Elysium Gaming an multigaming and MMO organisation. I play WoW since Vanilla Beta and i am thrilled that we are gonna play again my most beloved game ever :) For that reason even though is early, we recruit people to join our ranks and start our journey together. We accept old and new players who want to play again or learn the game from the side of the Alliance. We are not elitists, we have patiance so we can teach and help those who need it and same time to prepare the guild for the end game. We are interested in PvE and PvP but also in every possible in game event. We are open to ideas and sugestions and after all we will deside all together how to run things.Thats the purpose we start now the recruiting,so we can gather as often as possible on our discord and discuss how we want our guild to be. All together we will deside about everything. I am experienced Guild Master and Raid Leader and i am sure i will be able to help so we can create something nice. If you are interested, please add me as friend Ariakan#2206 so we can discuss farther or join our discord channel https://discord.gg/rCy8sSd Thank youAriakán2 15 Nov

You won’t get extra cloth by farming cloth on your tailor, so you can bring any character.   The most expensive cloth will be mooncloth, with a 4 day cooldown.  Grab that pattern from Qia in Everlook, Winterspring. The second best cloth will be runecloth.  That’s best farmed from the ogres in Dire Maul, Twilight mobs in Silithus, and the trolls in Zul’Masher, which is north of Lights Hope chapel.


Notez cependant, que les développeurs ont précisé que le nombre de personnes qui rejoindront la bêta fermée sera beaucoup moins important que pour une bêta ordinaire. Il ne s'agit pas ici d'équilibrer le jeu, mais de corriger des bugs et des problèmes qui pourraient apparaître. Afin d'y avoir une chance de participer, vous devez vous inscrire via le site www.wowclassic.com.
Wait, /sit to trigger crits is p-server thing? I distinctly remember people saying that if you sit, you will be crit when I played 1.12 Vanilla. On top of that - there’s that pally that one shot Kazzak in early Vanilla because he stacked a shitload of reckoning when it didn’t have a limit - it’s not inconceivable that he did it without /sit to trigger crits, but it would take him so, SO long to do that without /sit.
Brewmaster: Hot Trub - Purifying Brew deals 30% of your purified staggered damage to all enemies within 10 yards. Mistweaver: Way of the Crane - Increases your Physical damage by 25%, you remove and become immune to all snare and root effects and you heal up to 3 nearest allies for 150% of all damage done. Lasts 15 sec. Windwalker: Reverse Harm - Heals a friendly target for 8% of their maximum health, and causes 100% of the amount healed to instantly be dealt to the nearest enemy as Nature damage within 5 yards. Paladin

Mobs out in the open world generally have higher movement speed and higher attack speed than you. If you were to stand still and trade hits with a mob back and forth you may end up trading 1 of your Auto attacks for 2+ of theirs. If executed properly, The Hamstring Method allows you to trade 1 hit for 1 hit with a target, drastically reducing your damage taken while not reducing your damage at all since you are monitoring your natural auto attacks with the swing timer.
Use (“V”) to show all the patients status on screen. You will have special triage bandages (add them to your action bar/hot key) which should be applied to Critically injured, then Badly injured, and then injured. Once you started treating a patient do not interupt, just finish treating that patient before moving on to another patient. You should select your next patient before your are finished with the first one, then all you have to do is hit you hot key to start the next one.
14 Nov What we know about Classic so far Release date: Summer 2019. Patch version source: 1.12 - Drums of War ("because it represents the most complete version of the classic experience."). The client is based on a reverse-engineer of the 7.3.5 Legion client. Classic patch version: 1.13 Subscription cost: Included in the current Battle for Azeroth WoW subscription. No separate (classic only) subscription announced. ("We've talked about not wanting to split the community into "Classic" and "Live,") Release roll-out stages: Stage 1: Azuregos, Lord Kazzak, Dire Maul, Molten Core, Onyxia's Lair. Stage 2: Battlegrounds and PvP rewards, Zul'Gurub, Blackwing Lair. Stage 3: Ahn'Quiraj and the opening of the Gates of Ahn'Quiraj event, Tier 0.5, Silithus content, Green Dragons Stage 4: Naxxramas an the Scourge invasion world event. Servers available: (preliminary) - Estimated at 20+ on launch (BlizzCon demo time-period had 20) Additional info: - No LFR/LFD tool. - No in-game shop. - No WoW Tokens purchasable for 'Classic' gold. - No achievements. - No unified server Auction Houses (Alliance+Horde). - No flying. - No phasing or cross-realm tech. - Sharding is not confirmed, although it is a possibility to help with server load during the initial launch. (see post 11 below for clarification on phasing ≠ sharding) - Old character models will be used. - Updated graphics (textures and lighting), however 2004 graphics will be available in the options menu. - Character services are not currently planned, but services like Realm Transfers could be added in the future. - If Realm Transfers are ever added in Classic, there will be no transfers between Classic and Modern WoW servers. - Transmog of Classic WoW drops on Modern WoW characters will not be available. - No instant email (1 hour delay) - Auto-completion of names or quickly clearing a mailbox have been left in. ("someone could create an add-on to do the very same thing") - 16 debuff limit. ("We don't want to mess with the 1.12 data, we don't want to mess with balance") - Improved loot trading stays, no more exploitative ninja looting from trade windows. ("we felt that was worth retaining for classic rather than creating a volume of support tickets that were wholly unnecessary to the experience") - Energy regeneration (such as Rogues) will follow the old method (20 energy p/ 2 seconds) instead of the current 1 energy every tenth of a second. - Colour blind mode from current retail will be available. - Right click reporting from current retail will be available. - Battle.net Integration, download and chat through the Blizzard launcher. - There are no former members of Nostalrius developers working in the WoW Classic project. - There are no plans to change the class balancing of that time. Add-ons: - Currently there's no 100% concrete solution. There won't be a full roll-back to the 1.12 add-on API as doing so would allow nearly complete automation of combat decision making (Bots), however the modern API offers some additional functionality for creating social features that could also undermine the authentic Classic experience. Developers are looking for a middle ground using community and add-on creators feedback. Don't forget to upvote if you find this useful. I'll keep this updated as more info comes in. Sources: - Dev Blog: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/21881587/dev-watercooler-world-of-warcraft-classic - Dev Blog: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/22548005/dev-watercooler-inside-the-world-of-warcraft-classic-blizzcon-demo - Dev Blog: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/news/22646759 - Eurogamer: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-11-04-wow-classic-blizzard-answers-some-of-the-big-questions - Buffed.de: http://www.buffed.de/World-of-Warcraft-Spiel-42971/Specials/Classic-Interview-Server-Fraktionen-1268554/ - Blizzcon Classic panel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhKkP8LryYM - Gamestar.de: https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/world-of-warcraft-classic-leak-grafik-laesst-sich-per-knopfdruck-auf-retro-optik-umstellen,3336443.html - WoWHead: https://www.wowhead.com/news=288412/blizzcon-2018-wow-classic-interview-with-brian-birmingham-and-john-hight - Spidersweb.pl: https://www.spidersweb.pl/2018/11/world-of-warcraft-classic-blizzcon.htmlKallila11 14 Nov
Notez que lors de la sortie du jeu, le mardi 27 août 2019, tout le contenu ne sera pas disponible immédiatement. Celui-ci sera déployé en 6 phases. En effet, les développeurs souhaitent attendre et voir comment la communauté s'approprie le jeu. Blizzard partagera le calendrier lorsque que les développeurs auront une idée plus claire de la façon dont les joueurs profitent du contenu. Nous vous proposons un calendrier qui sera mis à jour dès que les informations seront disponibles.
15 Nov Everything wrong in Demo - listed Dont worry cuz its just a demo. We only saw 4 levels and 2 zones. LOL. General Issues -Items with random attributes show stats from newer expansions (Ex. Critical strike rating) (items rarely had crit or hit rating, and it was always in % example ) - Damage number fonts and size is from WoD, the original was from Vanilla->MoP (The position of the damage as well as the "pop" of crits is different aswell. Also, the CT was changed slightly even during MOP. In MOP the crits were still "poppy", but they always showed up in a uniform line) - Sharding (they have already made a statement about sharding. But i still note it here) - Example of sharding problems - https://clips.twitch.tv/ChillyCrunchyBunnyPermaSmug - You can use meeting stones to summon people (added in tbc Patch 2.0.1 Source ) - You cant jump in water, you rise/swim when pressing space - Mob packs (ex. the defias camps on the mountain in Westfall) seems to be linked, so you cant pull 1 and run back, all 3 will follow forever, if 1 drops aggro they all reset (Not sure if this is blizzlike or not, Blizz would have to check the referance 1.12 client) The way you kite mobs in classic does not work in the demo, Probably a problem with the mob AI? - Cant abuse the walking animation to get a "moonwalk" Animation (would be sad to leave out such an iconic thing from the old engine) - Wand attacks cause you to face the target - You can use bnet to whisper members of the enemy faction - Might still be some problems where mobs spawn/error between the db/world. Reports of mobs spawning under the map - Mobs fanning is implemented incorrectly, they are walking backwards instead of turning around to adjust positions. - After using a flight path I was flagged as "player vs all" (like in gurubashi arena) and was able to attack players with the same bug - The graveyard at moonbrook, westfall doesn't have vultures. It should. - Rare mobs deals way less damage then they used too (hit like 25 some of them) - Chests has less green drops then they used too (40% of the time currently) - Spell Batching is not implemented because of the post cata engine. Big impact on PvP. - Kobolds at the Jangolode Mine in West fall, when low health and running away from you, run at much faster speed than even normal walking. They should walk away. - defias mobs in Jangolode mine (maybe other mobs as well?) Don't run back and attack again if they are low health and start running away from you. I think they should start attacking you again after ~8 seconds or so of running away - Corpses seem to despawn very quickly. I can kill a mob, loot it, and turn away and it'll be gone within 10 seconds. - Mobs sometimes spawn underneath terrain and glitch/evade--for example, hyenas sometimes spawned underneath hills near Centaur camps, and the Sludge Beast rare spawn near the Venture Co. tower in the Barrens would be stuck underground and evade combat. (Oddly, starting the nearby shredder escort quest caused it to suddenly become unstuck and teleport near the shredder, engaging in combat) - It seemed like mobs were dropping way too much money. I don't remember getting 30 copper per Westfall defias mob, but maybe the memory is just fuzzy. But I really shouldn't have had over a gold and be nearing 2 gold by level 16. So money drops, rewards, or vendor sell prices for items are way too high. Confirmed by old Client. - Farmer Saldean just dropped this line of dialogue on approach: "They might have run all the other farmers off, but the Saldean's will never leave Westfall." Pretty sure that's Cata dialogue. Never seen him talk before.Uauu105 15 Nov
This Shadow Talent Build is the fastest for Leveling Up a Priest Class from 1-60 in WoW Classic patch 1.12. Spamming Shadow Damage DOTs while kite mobs will be the name of the game with this build, having the ability to sustain your health is just a bonus. You will just need to make sure you are stacking enough spirit so you don’t run out of mana often as that will slow down the levelling process drastically.
Wait, /sit to trigger crits is p-server thing? I distinctly remember people saying that if you sit, you will be crit when I played 1.12 Vanilla. On top of that - there’s that pally that one shot Kazzak in early Vanilla because he stacked a shitload of reckoning when it didn’t have a limit - it’s not inconceivable that he did it without /sit to trigger crits, but it would take him so, SO long to do that without /sit.
Nov 15 Which class are you planning on rolling? I'm still trying to decide between: Orc shaman: enhancement until 60 then resto for pvp Undead priest: shadow unless I decide to raid a bit Leaning towards these healers since I don't mind the role and 5 mans will be insanely easy to pickup. I've also been tossing around the idea of rogue/mage since that is what I played back on during vanilla/BC (had a blast ganking).Xano24 Nov 15
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Nov 15 Question about the PVP system I am struggling to put the words to my question so let me just throw my 'plan' out there. Please correct me if my assumptions are wrong. Since horde are typically the pvp focused faction, I planned on rolling alliance on a pvp server with horde dominating the server in order to climb pvp ranks easier. My queue times would be instant and there would be less competition when trying to climb the ranks. The way I understand the honor system is that I am competing against others on my faction for a position on the ladder. Less competition would make it easier to climb. I know I will never get rank 14 and don't plan on it. I thought with my limited play time, if I was on a horde dominated pvp server I would cap around rank 6-7. Being on the alliance on the same realm I could get to 8-9 with the same /played. Is this true or do I have it wrong?Jdpp5 Nov 15
15 Nov 7.3.5 client - worst pick to begin with So on your panel you explained why you couldn't use the old Classic Client and told us why u basically needed to recreate the entire game with 7.3.5. This was the worst and main wrong choice to begin with and I guess u guys noticed that but it was to late to go back. Instead of starting the Megaproject to recreate the entire old game you should just have outsourced your servers and build a new, small customer support team to work with the old interface there. By this pretty cheap demo and panel we now see which "insane idea" (quoting you) route you picked. That was a pretty bad pick and beside Sharding,16 debuff slots, new forced animations/sounds into classic graphics toggle, wrong stats, wrong mobaggro range, wrong UI, emptying the world by summoning stones, wrong npc pathing on quests and all the other crap this is by far the worst change to Classic. We take all this "its just a demo" as granted and trust you to fix those things until Release even if time runs low for the enormous amount of fixes needed there till summer 2019. Okay but 7.3.5 brings an endless list with its engine and code which is not comparable. Rogues won't be able to abuse front backstabbing skills, the physics are fundamentall different, there won't be no animation cancels, the movement feels like legion not classic, melees won't have the expanded range they often used to due code bug, Mobs do backpeddale when u "push" them, tldr blablabla. https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/9ubyr6/wow_classic_demo_feedback_bugs_and_legion/ In short when people say "this doesn't feel like classic somehow" they're exactly right, because it is not classic. It is 7.3.5 with changed numbers and assets (BTW lots of your "classic graphic option" assets aren't even classic as well). The core of the new game ur building there is fundamentally different and you guys at blizz know exactly that it is, don't misslead anyone by sayin its "authetic" please. Basically it's like putting a Diablo2 character into Diablo3 and say "Here you go, this is Diablo 2". Guess what? No, its not.Uauu42 15 Nov

I am currently working full time on my Vanilla WoW leveling guides.  Soon there will be a 1-60 speed leveling guide for Alliance, along with in-game guide versions available for my members area.  As of right now, there is no members area, but if you would like to show support for my efforts into this project, you can simply donate to me via Patreon if you like (you will get some cool rewards in return).  Or you can donate directly with PayPal if you like.  All donations are highly appreciated and they will only motivate me more to continue making the best vanilla WoW leveling guides on the web.


When you decide to Buy World of Warcraft Classic Gold, the main factors you will consider are price, trust and speed. mmoko has many years of experience in the field of game goods sales, providing excellent pre-sales and after-sales services for more than 50,000 customers. Our customer service staff and game traders are online 24 hours a day. If you have any problems, please feel free to contact us. Our goal is to do our best to meet the needs of our customers.
15 Nov Elitist guilds, will we see them? Just popped to my head. What do you think will we see many "hardcore" raiding guilds on classic servers? Raiding on vanilla will be a fun thing for sure, but the raids are a joke designed for 20-30 people and will be cleared the day they open so idea of an "hardcore" guild denying you playing an enha shaman for example seems rather silly. Sure there will be some trying to get world firsts. Not sure what I'm trying to say here.Sumutar24 15 Nov
14 Nov Pserver mechanics So, like a bunch of people here, I played Vanilla on release. Quit after TBC, and only ever picked up the game again in the Pserver scene, which was cool, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions regarding things that work a certain way on private, and never did on live. I think it'd be good if we made a list of differences, to sort this out. 1. Sitting to trigger crit mechanics works on P, didn't on vanilla. 2. Frontstabbing is a thing on P, wasn't on vanilla (I think). 3. Melee DPS is always way higher on P. 4. Warrior charge has always behaved oddly on mangos core 5. The current trend in Pservers is getting 4-5 ony kills per lockout by having 35 people die and leave before the ki ll. Was this possible back then? And so on. Anyone wanna add to the list?Visgoth27 14 Nov
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